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Oct 29, 2004

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Allen Lewis

bls:

Just because theere is a wealth of information in libraries does not mean it will be used or even read. In the parish I am in, most of the adults are woefully ignorant of what is acutally in the Bible. Also they are woefully ignorant of what the Episcopal Church actually believes. And this is despite the fact that our priest does the best he can to teach these things.

So your answer is a no go. Just because you are such a whiz kid in theology does not mean the average pew potato is. That is why we should be concerned about what is being taught at the parish level.

David Huff

The funny thing (funny ironic, not funny ha-ha) is that the letter to Fr. Harmon suggests that "conserving" Christians should be the most loving of all, the most willing to speak the truth in charity.

However, this brouhaha is yet another of almost countless examples of how this is patently not the case. The level of vitriol from the "conservative" camp is so outrageous that it completely overwhelms any correct or useful theology they might have to offer. Really, you guys are your own worst enemies...

bls

Well, standard what? The worship and liturgy are OK. The teaching is more like standard agnosticism. There's a reason ECUSA has never promoted (or valued) biblical literacy. And yes, I've been to a service or two - I was baptised Episcopalian over fifty years ago, before you adult "converts" came, confirmed long before anyone ever heard of Gene Robinson; I had to go outside ECUSA to find Christ. And I'm telling you that you don't have a clue Who it is you're playing with.

Were you the person who claimed ECUSA was a laughingstock? My post was addressed to someone who seemed as if she'd never been to the church, so why take it as some sort of insult to you personally?

Myself, I found Christ in ECUSA. So there you are.

Richard Amiel McGough

God has given a great victory to all His Saints on All Saints Day!

The story has been blogged for days. It broke into the mainstream media today with this article from the Washington Times:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20041101-122457-1902r.htm

Here's one of the main blogs that first exposed this "wickedness in high places."

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1589

Here's my detailed examination of one of the most explicit acts of Pagan Sex Worship to BEL promulgated by an Apostate Episcopal Priest:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41138

Here is what God Almighty tells His Saints:

FLEE FROM THE APOSTATE BABYLONIAN US EPISCOPAL CHURCH!

There are many Scriptures that tell us what we are to do to help the remnant escape from Babylon:

Jer 50:28 The voice of them that flee and escape out of the land of Babylon, to declare in Zion the vengeance of the LORD our God, the vengeance of his temple.

Jer 50:29 Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel.

Jer 50:31 Behold, I am against thee, O thou most proud, saith the Lord GOD of hosts: for thy day is come, the time that I will visit thee.

Jer 50:32 And the most proud shall stumble and fall, and none shall raise him up: and I will kindle a fire in his cities, and it shall devour all round about him.

And here is the Scripture we must fulfill in service of God and His Church:

Jer 51:31 One post shall run to meet another, and one messenger to meet another, [b]to shew the king of Babylon that his city is taken.[/b]

Post this knowledge to everyone you know! Warn the Remnant of God's People to flee the Apostate Babylonian US Episcopal Church!

In service of Almighty God and His Church,

Richard Amiel McGough

bls

Just because theere is a wealth of information in libraries does not mean it will be used or even read. In the parish I am in, most of the adults are woefully ignorant of what is acutally in the Bible. Also they are woefully ignorant of what the Episcopal Church actually believes. And this is despite the fact that our priest does the best he can to teach these things.

Well, what you're really saying, then, is that no matter what anybody does, many people will pay no attention. But what can we do about that, then?

What the Episcopal Church actually believes is stated in the Book of Common Prayer for anyone to read. And it's in every service of the liturgy. Anglicanism is Lex orandi, lex credendi - the law of prayer is the law of belief. And as a matter of fact, I believe I saw (maybe on David Virtue's website?) that the priest in question had posted that his parish does typical Rite I and Rite II services every week. So again, I don't really see the issue here. If people don't pay attention in any case, then what can anybody do at all?

bls

However, this brouhaha is yet another of almost countless examples of how this is patently not the case. The level of vitriol from the "conservative" camp is so outrageous that it completely overwhelms any correct or useful theology they might have to offer. Really, you guys are your own worst enemies...

I agree. These people are very, very angry. It doesn't make any sense to me, but there must be a reason. I wish they could state clearly what's bothering them, so maybe we could work it all out. I just don't get it, really, but many people seem like decent folks generally. For some reason, this issue just makes people go nuts. Maybe some people, perhaps like Jebra above, are mourning that things aren't the same as they used to be - it feels like the death of the church to them, and that's a valid thing, IMO.

But I have to point out that according to recent polls, the fastest-growing segment of the population is the "unchurched" - and it's not, quite obviously, for lack of an "orthodox" message to be found. The Roman Catholic Church is there for anybody who desires that. But what about all those folks who see Christianity as irrational and in fact terribly unloving? This is why people are attracted to paganism these days, IMO; Christianity can seem so very nasty sometimes, as we see in the present flap. I'm glad there's one branch of it - ECUSA - that welcomes all, even if at the expense of "orthodoxy." What's more important: theology or people? People, I say. Let them come, and let them be welcome.

Anyway, not everybody's "orthodox" to begin with.

John wilkins

Richard, our troops are currently in babylon, but we're not doing a very good job. We might need more archers, as our own troops aren't doing a very good job against the suicide bombers there.

Are we supposed to think that virtuosity is an independent site?

Dave C.

"Hmmm. Aren't you infantilizing those 1200 members of the congregation, as if these two priests had them all under a spell or something? Or are you actually holding them equally responsible for what happened? I'm not quite sure how they came to be involved in this. Please explain."

No, I was simply responding to Anglican to Be's post that said, essentially, "why all the fuss? It only involved two individuals." I would agree with this position if the two individuals were not priests and if the liturgy had not been posted and promoted on the ECUSA website. I certainly don't think this by itself is evidence of a denomination wide, systemic problem, but it is also certainly more than just a local issue involving two individuals.

The whole issue, though, illustrates just how sensitive everyone has become and how polarized our denomination is.

bls

The whole issue, though, illustrates just how sensitive everyone has become and how polarized our denomination is.

Yes, I definitely agree with this. It's like this in the real world, of course, these days, too. I guess when society goes through a lot of change, it gets reflected in the Church as well, eventually, because church is made up of human beings who are part of that society.

sc

"I agree. These people are very, very angry. It doesn't make any sense to me, but there must be a reason. I wish they could state clearly what's bothering them, so maybe we could work it all out. I just don't get it, really, but many people seem like decent folks generally. For some reason, this issue just makes people go nuts. Maybe some people, perhaps like Jebra above, are mourning that things aren't the same as they used to be - it feels like the death of the church to them, and that's a valid thing, IMO."

Thank you so much for validating our feelings... I think the liberal camp has a hard time understanding just how important the theological and doctrinal issues are to many of us. Yes, I really do care about which God the church is leading people to worship, because I know how easy it is (and there is no lack of evidence for this in church history) for pride, control, idolatry, self-centeredness, etc. to get in the way of listening to God - or even wanting to listen to God - especially as God has revealed God's self to us in Scripture and in Jesus Christ. Without being attentive to the Trinitarian God's self-revelation from these sources /outside/ of one's self and one's current emotional state, one can very soon get off track spiritually and otherwise. If this happens in church leaders, the foundering is that much more serious.

bls

Yes, I really do care about which God the church is leading people to worship, because I know how easy it is (and there is no lack of evidence for this in church history) for pride, control, idolatry, self-centeredness, etc. to get in the way of listening to God - or even wanting to listen to God - especially as God has revealed God's self to us in Scripture and in Jesus Christ. Without being attentive to the Trinitarian God's self-revelation from these sources /outside/ of one's self and one's current emotional state, one can very soon get off track spiritually and otherwise. If this happens in church leaders, the foundering is that much more serious.

Well, sc, I don't want to get into this argument again here, but I really think that ECUSA is right about its stance on gay people, even though I think it may be wrong about many other things. I think ECUSA is listening to God on this issue, and I think this become clear after awhile.

But I do realize that in the meantime, people aren't sure at all about this, and maybe that's too difficult a thing. Maybe it would be best to part ways for awhile, to set up two separate Provinces (although I think the Windsor Report said they weren't considering that), and to see how we all feel in another 20 years or something. Ironically, I'm a pretty traditional Christian, theologically, in most other ways, and I wouldn't like it if conservatives were gone from the Church forever. I personally think we need each other, and that we are part of each other.

But maybe a "trial separation" would be a good approach for now. Thanks for posting.

bls wrote: "I wish they could state clearly what's bothering them, so maybe we could work it all out."

Wow! Wow! WOW! I couldn't have stated anything more clearly if I had written it in every language, painted ten thousand pictures, and had it sung by the Angels of God!

Thanks guys. I just would not have thought it possible that there could be such absolute total complete and utter BLINDNESS to the ten tons of ELEPHANT DROPPINGS in the middle of your Sanctuary.

It is obvious you are true reprobates - God has handed you over to your uncleanness. Your minds are obliterated. You are in utter darkness. You see nothing. Your souls are dead to the things of God.

IS THIS PLAIN ENOUGH THAT EVEN YOU CAN UNDERSTAND?

You have fulfilled the Scripture of Romans 1:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

In service of Christ and His Church
Richard Amiel McGough

bls

And here's the very next verse, BTW, which I notice nobody ever quotes:

Rom 2:1

Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things.

Maybe they just haven't gotten quite that far yet?

Richard Amiel McGough

Wow oh wow oh WOW! So >NOW< you guys want to start quoting Scripture! This is rich!

Do you not realize that you are supporting explicit sex/orgy rituals in whoreship of BEL as well as rituals patterned after the work of the notorious and blatant satanist Aleister Crowley? Sorry to break the news to you, but perverting yet another Scripture is not going clear you of this one.

Richard Amiel McGough

BTW - Bill Melnyk has abjectly repented of the error everybody but you could see.

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1589

RAM

And in response to the Rom 3 quote, here is I Cor 6:4-5

If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

RAM

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